I agree your point of view. You also keep pointing out how everyone who disagrees needs to keep learning, but if youve ever been in a large production environment, youd realize that this is a complete load of bullshit. Mark your site would be very easy to code with a css layout. And all of this is absolutely hilarious when you attempt to make it work in multiple versions of IE and every other browser, let alone on an iPad or iPhone. To suggest that the purpose of divs is to use block rendering contradicts the argument that tags should have semantic meaning and not display meaning. CSS changes are device friendly. Perhaps this is the reason this debate keeps going on, because this change doesnt look like progress to a lot of people and they feel the benefits dont really outweigh the intuitive design of tables that make design a lot easier for beginners. The language allows web developers to regulate various style elements and functionalities, like layout, color, fonts, and therefore the formatting and display of HTML documents. Each technique has its uses, advantages, and disadvantages, and no technique is designed to be used in isolation. Not exactly the kind of thing thats going to make me want to help you/. The best things in life are not necessarily easy or easy to learn. By the way sorry the code in your comment didnt display. The more professional sites are *usually* built using div/css scripting and now table cells as most sites require absolute positioned content which most sites are not using. If I had stopped my study on the first day the table would have won by an equally small margin. It will usually involve adding more tags on the table side as compared to the div side. Thats not an apples to apples comparison. How to Turn a Design Image Into a Working Web Page: Part 1, How to Turn a Design Image Into a Working Web Page: Part 2. This means you dont have to do a lot of tedious work. I think much of the reason css vs tables is still debated is the misinformation people on both sides put out there. I never broke any of your layouts or created display bugs in whatever you produced. Your layout is really one thats pretty easy to code. Thats not an argument for tables in general, but it is an argument for me to continue to use tables for my small business clients who wont pay a lot for a web site, and will not get enough traffic to benefit from div based techniques. I dont know about you, but generally speaking what my clients want most often is to update the content. Let me start by letting you know I fall on the css side of things. The resulting code runs issue free cross browser. Cmon man! If there is a specific tutorial that isnt working for you just let me know which one and Ill be happy to take a look to see if there are any errors. Eventually it works, but at what cost? Its less-influenced by personal biases and emotions. With the 4 methods if its important to a site to support older versions of IE then sure dont choose the method which might not work with those versions. I totally thought this debate was long dead, but hid a road block and was procrastinating so I thought I would google random stuff and found this. Cant be done, we have faux columns but thats really just green screen trickery in doing so. Space on the server for all of my clients sites is generally 1/16 of capacity. The limiting factor isnt the language itself, its your current skill with the language. Outside of some special occasions you should never have to resize a div or its margin and padding because you updated the text inside of it. One must know these disadvantages so that he or she is aware and takes care of them while Im not suggesting its trivial to learn css, but its also not accurate to say the language itself is causing your specific layout issues. I think youre asking legitimate questions and Ill do my best to answer. Tables to me make for a more complicated structure that often create even more problems. Nah, i disagree.. if im the only one whos going to work with the site, i go for tables, its 1000x faster and easier to get a decent layout. If you want to report an error, or if you want to make a suggestion, do not hesitate to send us an e-mail: W3Schools is optimized for learning and training. LOL, Im not advocating tables b/c they are infintesimally slower then divs. I think your comments re flexibility and structure have merit assuming the only tools available are html and css. Again though you may notice in the post I dont use seo as a reason to use css. The conclusion isnt that it takes a long time to communicate in Spanish. Now, select the Table tab > click the Options button > uncheck the Automatically Resize to Fit Contents check box. The person usually chose a complicated path to solving the problem when a much simpler path existed. Some might argue that the content search engines see on the page is more important and through divs its easier to present a different order of content to visitors and search engine spiders. This debate has been going on for years. Odds are pretty good that none of the people who wrote these posts are or were on the development teams that wrote the browser code. Im thinking something in the way the code was set up is preventing that from happening. misinformation spreads on both sides of this debate, http://blog.hotdesign.com/2008/10/what-is-css/, http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/, http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/css/index.css, http://www.vanseodesign.com/css/equal-height-columns/, Establishing Stability In 2021 After A Chaotic 2020, My Goals For 2020This Object In Motion Wants To Keep Moving, 2019 Goals ReviewAn Unexpected Change Of Plans Taught Me A Lot, Happy ThanksgivingWindow Displays, MOMA, and Central Park Images, ReviewThe Elements Of Logo Design: Design Thinking, Branding, and Making Marks. Granted its not the kind of change youre likely to make, but as an example it shows the greater flexibility and control you have in developing with divs. Download a free sample from my book, Design Fundamentals. In theory, CSS is the answer, the problem is that the way browsers deal with SOME of it is not only not standardized, but can actually have the exact opposite result for example position: absolute can cause a column to move to the left in one browser and cause it to move down in another, and cause it to move up in yet another. I think not. Thats easy. Your comment suggests your commenting on the title of this post and not the content of the post. Laying out a site with divs has a learning curve. Good Article and a lot of gold in these comments. When you say things like hand coding is a pain it suggests you havent taken the time to learn css well. If you want your page to behave like a table or part of it, use a table. Sorry if it came across like I was against tables completely. It is in lists of links in one column and descriptions in another column, with more data in a third or forth column. Every table cell is dependent on the other table cells in its row to maintain the structure. Tables are like having the blocks bolted together and needing all blocks to be bolted before the structure itself holds together. I use Dreamweaver template files. Tables are simply not faster to create. When you ask about table type content with css do you mean using css to show tabular data or are you asking more about how to style tables? My homepage is currently structured with divs. Search engines are interested in your content, not your code. Personally, if I could instantly convert a design into HTML, Id do it. Its more in how you code it where I dont think html tables are the right approach. It amazes me that some folks still use tables for layout in this day and age. Oddly as grids become more and more in use theyre sometimes developed in a way that attempts to recreate a table using css. If I ever learn CSS completely, Ill use it more often as you cant fight progress but Ill never discount tables from the equation. You can do that regardless of how you structure your layout. I did say calling this css vs tables isnt really correct and that its really about tables and divs. Thanks for this. If youre not creating HTML e-mails, or unless you have some overriding need to have part of your page scale because of the amount of content on other parts of your page, theres no reason to use tables for layout. To remove double borders, take a look at the example below. Artificial intelligence designer salary. Then, I can see how they styled it in the source code. So Ill be more explicit. WebCSS is clearly preferable in cases where presentational markup and CSS support the same kind of design, no one in their right mind would argue that font-tags are better than There are SOME layouts that to use entirely CSS requires an inordinate amount of extremely messy code to represent. Advantages and Disadvantages Determining which extent type to use, depends business requirements and perspective. I am in the middle of a major project that we tried to code with proper CSS, but its incredibly frustrating and time consuming. And Id suggest its still debatable that tables do equal columns better. Most of the time when someone presents code showing the complicated css they needed the problem was their general approach. As people combat these myths the debate goes on and on combating misinformation while dancing around the central issue. I hope that helps answer some of the questions. If you change the formatting of one style sheet, this will affect all of the pages that use it. 1. Specifically, it would take more than one div to create a row cell structure so when you need to display data in that structure its actually exactly the same amount of html whether you use a table or nested divs. I have used table-based layouts for a few years and have started using css to mainly style text. Web3. Still its hardly the fault of css that IE has bugs. The advantages with using divs are essentially counter to the problems with tables described above. For me this debate is less css vs tables as it is divs vs tables. Thats why this method is useful for testing or previewing the changes, and Accessibility issues arise more frequently due to excessive coding ok so this can be attributed to bad coding but its such a common issue that it has to be taken into account. Developers need to realize that its okay to use tables when you have to display data and you need to use divs when you have to create layouts. I do understand your point. How to create X and Y axis flip animation using HTML and CSS ? While using W3Schools, you agree to have read and accepted our. Everything else is really irrelevant. Web1. but i do straight apps, nothing pretty.. data-driven stuff. Im amazed people still argue in favor of table-based layout. Advantages of Inline CSS: You can easily and quickly insert CSS rules to an HTML page. Most of the sites I create are for small businesses averaging around 10 60 pages. It still ends up being less code than you would use for a similar table based design. We needed three sets of tags to present some content as opposed to the one set of div tags. With many sites (big, e commerce sites for example) having many different sections of text and images and other media throughout a page the code just grows and grows, taking browsers longer to load page content. I just said they were faster, which you proved. If anyone would love to show me how to make my old newindex page into CSS Id appreciate the help, but I have to admit that lack of documentation for anything other than simple layouts is getting really frustrating. Tables and divs are the structure. I do think there is an advantage for div based techniques for high traffic sites and I will continue to expand my knowledge of div based layouts for this reason. A div-based layout is: That might not seem like a lot, but just those three things are enough to make a div based approach better to a table based approach. designing since 1999 started with dreamweaver, handcoding is a pain and for programmers. I had not heard about this controversy, being a WYSIWYG kind of guy. How does it suggest we should use tables? If youre so convinced tables are better than css then go ahead and use tables. It could mean one less page they get to crawl on your site. Why does anyone really care how something is put together? Youll compare each of the arguments against another based on relevant data. Fixed positions make things more flexible? Ive offered tutorials on the basic layout and Ive offered tutorials on things that can go inside that layout, but never all the code for an entire site. Menu. So, its important to ensure faster speed. Especially when php can make up for some of the down falls. It might be a few days before I can get to it, but I will take a look. Having used both its very obvious to me that the div based approach is the much better way to go. To each their own in regards to tables. On the other hand, judicious use of semantically meaningful HTML combined with CSS might confine such changes to the CSS and the pictures used. Heavy image use and Flash still seem to be the biggest factors in speed. Im amazed that in 2013 people are still defending table-based layouts, but whatever. Your probably right about round pegs and square holes, and I am sorry if you took offence, but the fact that countless people have these issues with css must indicate a lack of continuety with css. The problem most people have when learning to use divs is trying to force them to act like tables instead of allowing them to be what they are. Research another option instead of a table for displaying the Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. From what I can see most people who argue against css simply havent taken the time to learn to master it. You are a part of an ever growing majority. Everything should be able to reflow the way you want with css. Nothing you said is true and most of it doesnt make any sense. biscotools.com. The rest is a necessary evil to get the design into the medium. My money will be on the person using divs. I feel like Im at a confessional since most web designers dont do it this way, but my designs image heavy and clients have been very pleased with my work. Its true that less code means less potential for show stopping errors, but those show stoppers can exist regardless of your sites structure. In my opinion, combining table layout with CSS works great. How to Play and Pause CSS Animations using CSS Custom Properties ? However. Top to bottom you seem to sum it up pretty well. Otherwise, I just appreciate when someone makes the website function well enough for me to get to the content Im looking for. CSS handles the design and feel a part of an internet page. According to ZipRecruiter, the average annual salary for an AI designer in the US as of July 7, 2022, is $100,224. WebJavaScript advantages Fast speed: JavaScript is executed on the client side thats why it is very fast. I show this above in the post. If you send me a link Ill be happy to take a look. WebSome of the advantages and disadvantages of database forms are as follows: Advantages Data entry is less error-prone A number of predefined formats are available for use Usually, all the data fields for a single record appears in one screen Forms are customizable (compared to data sheet views) Forms can include instructions for data entry Home / Blog / CSS / CSS vs Tables: The Debate That Wont Die. I feel like one of the reasons that tables are still so widely used are the WYSIWYGs. There are a few downsides while using CSS. 8.1 Introduction to Style Sheets . I also kept all my university textbooks just in case I would need them guess what? Which is why Im not one to generally make that argument. On one hand you say you can create 3 columns of equal heights with divs, but in your blog post, you mentioned that people shouldnt try to make tables with divs. Early on you had to use tables to layout a site well. However, you can build a great site using tables and a poor site using css. I agree with you about css3-grids. I think making your structural elements independent is the better option. Artificial intelligence design advantages: How can AI help to design? Different levels of CSS i.e. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. Theres no need for a Advantages of Inline CSS: Inline takes precedence over all other styles. If youre asking about the former then Id say go ahead and use a table when youre presenting data in columns and rows. Two common formats are: Key-Value pairs fast read and write but IE and Opera supports CSS as different logic. 1) Easier Site-Wide Changes CSS proponents claim site-wide changes are easier with CSS because you change one file and boom, it changes on all pages. Its the kind of thing that might move you from #8 to #7, but not from page 5 to the first page. I use it and love it. While you probably wont appreciate hearing this, the more likely cause for the problems you see is your own knowledge of css. I dont think the choice is about shape though. Divs cant do what tables can as simple as that. (Remember, I DO use CSS for formatting.) Using isnt semantic and isnt CSS. . Even if we accept the argument that learning to use divs is difficult that doesnt make tables a better approach. How to use CSS in different dimension (CSS-in-JS) ? 2. Unfortunately, by using tables I think increased load time and perhaps SEO unfriendliness of my code are stumbling blocks to my future success as a web designer. Im going to remain open minded and give CSS a chance! It doesnt once you know the one or two places where there could be an issue. But I guess when all you have lying around is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail. HTML tables impose a more rigid structure on the content than a div. An example of this lie is what proponents of divs like to show off by only having a few divs compared to a table structure, but in order to get even close to having the same properties as table we have to use something like the last example in http://www.vanseodesign.com/css/equal-height-columns/ as the others are just faking the appearance with a background image. Load time is always going to be an issue. I find that if I have to spend more than a 5 hours trying to figure out the combination of CSS statements to achieve the result I want on just one page, and I can do it in a table (a VERY SIMPLE table), in less than 15 minutes, then the dream of CSS has not been achieved yet. Thats why I wrote this post. Thats not the case. As far as it being easier for you to code it with a table now, thats probably true. The limiting factors isnt the language, its my ability to use the language. Cascading Style Sheets (CSS): CSS is defined as a method sheet language that provides web designers control over how an internet site communicates with web browsers including the formatting and display of their HTML documents. Its not hard. and on. I do think more code means more chances of making a show stopping kind of error. I too started out doing HTML with tables, and as soon as I saw the CSS light, Ive never been able to see it any other way. Where did I say you shouldnt try to make tables with divs? Choosing the right storage format is crucial as it affects your disks If I tired to reply to your comment in Spanish it would take me hours, even days, to put together a few coherent sentences. CSS plays an important role, by using CSS you simply got to specify a repeated style for element once & use it multiple times as because CSS will automatically apply the required styles. Maybe its not feasible in your case, but it might be worth looking into. Youre welcome to send me an email of fill out the contact form and we can talk. CSS is not hard to learn.The argument is made by people comparing learning something new to learning something they already know well. That flow is what needs to be eliminated! I still dont see where Im hyping anything. Feel free to contact me if you want me to develop the home page without tables. 2. This site is simple and fantastic, thanks for making it easy to read your content. Items misaligned, trouble getting the position of floated elements, absurd hacks, you name it. They use less code. This post is framed the way it is, because its a reaction to posts framing the topic as html tables are better than css. I watched many people struggle when it comes to nesting tables. Also if you include the wrapper tags and the like you tend to end up with more tags for css than tables beause of all the work arounds you have to do. Tables and grids are not the same thing in web development. Let me also say that if you prefer to develop sites with a table-based layout, good for you. Youre welcome to use them to layout sites if you want. Hi Jennifer. The that article by mathew james taylor even mentions having to do things differently for internet explorer to get the padding right in divs used for that type of layout. Whatever works to get the job done you know? It might not be that one line of css is off, but more that the way that part of the page is structured in general could be done differently. The one that continues using tables is because it does not dominate or does not know CSS. Its more about making sure your code for structuring the page and your code for styling that structure arent woven too tightly together. With CSS, what works with one browser might not always work with another. Odds are though they would look at every data point they could so I would think a slower server would mean potentially worse ranking. Years ago it moved away from tables and towards divs and css for layout. Sometimes they write for things called tabloids, or articles of paragraphs arranged in tabular form. As for your disadvantage I have to disagree. CSS (divs) are more accessible Both tables and divs can be coded to be accessible or inaccessible. People can build sites without using a table-based layout now and still do. Thanks! The pros and cons are supposed to be regarding the setting up of grid layouts using display:table. Eric Meyers books are good. The load time though, is now reason enough to recommend css over tables for seo. I can understand your frustration, but its not the fault of css. I do have a very fast development process which involves slicing an image file from my designer, using a tool called Image Splitter. Thanks Kevin. There are plenty of easy ways to create equal height columns in css. Saying things like, all people who use tables are quite frankly is absurd. Were not quite there yet with what wed like to do where design is concerned. 2. I avoid tables and table-cell in almost all layouts to avoid ridicule, but deep down I truly believe that anything else is convoluted and meant to create more jobs for web developers. Funny. Yet every few months someone else pops in here to tell me why Im clueless and to argue in favor of table-based layout. Easy to learn: JavaScript is easy to learn. There are many more people who dont have those problems. You make the assumption that because it takes you 5 hours to develop a layout in css that its the same for other people. Calm down. Just for the entirety of your layout. It doesnt lead to the need for more tags and it doesnt require workarounds. Im not logged into the site right now, but next time I am, Ill see if I can fix it. How to check which tab is active using Material UI ? I think tables were a great way to layout a website once upon a time. (Yes, I like clean code too.) Other people would find it just as easy to code the same layout with css. Hopefully people will start accepting table-cell or something similar. In fact I use them all the time when I want to present data. I am about to take on a new website project, first one in 8 years. Many divs require way too much css to make it worth your while. It helps to form spontaneous and consistent changes. John all 3 of the sites you list can definitely be developed using css for the layout instead of tables. However if you dont need this right away I am planning a post on setting up a 2 column layout with css in the next couple of weeks. I wont restate all the reasons why since I said them in the post already. Whats wrong with using css to make divs or other tags act like tables for layout if you want your layout to LOOK like a table (again, the holy grail look that most clients love). Its quicker to develop with tables Nope. Its huge. Using css to layout a site is the most difficult part, but it does come together with a little practice. I make a change to the template file and boom, it changes on all pages. I dont use DreamWeaver and you dont need to add fixed dimensions everywhere to make divs work. more flexible since one div is not dependent on the other divs on the page it allows for more freedom in your design, quicker to load blocks of code can be presented right away instead of the browser requiring an extra pass. A div is a more generic container that doesnt impose any structure on the content within. Then I format the text in CSS adding padding and margins where needed. The problems I run into are on updates: adding a few lines here, and changing the text there. Im not disagreeing with anything you say. 3. Better Website Speed For a website to function efficiently, it should have a faster load time. So, if thats the structure it uses the same amount of code. I typed along with all the code samples and it helped me a lot. In its simplest form were comparing: Even in the simplest case above you can see tables are already a more complex structure than divs. Two common formats are: Key-Value pairs fast read and write but not optimized for lookup. And that, in my view, should be the only thing that qualifies you to comment on the number of passes the browser makes when rendering a page. I am currently a consultant with an enormous company that forces us to support IE6. One of the debates that never seems to go away in the web development community is that of css vs tables and which is better to use for the layout of your site. But again, if I dont see the overwhelming benefits, I wont don my armor or sharpen my weapons. Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness.. If you originally decide all your h1 tags should be blue and later want them to be red its certainly easier to have your h1 style sitting in a single css file. Here is the CSS code, so far, through Dreamweaver: Of course that depends on the developer more than the code itself. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Your email address will not be published. You either learn code or you use a 1990s style basic editor where you can assemble a site in minutes with tables that will adjust to a any modern display or device. The only time I get nosy is if someone did something mind blowing that I want to learn how to do also. To argue in favor of table-based layout, good for you table now thats. So far, through dreamweaver: of course that depends on the client side thats it. Minded and give css a chance right approach updates: adding a lines... The person using divs to behave like a table when youre presenting data columns! You have lying around is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail those. 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