This group includes a dozen of the earliest glass eye
In between were what are called tack eyes and they are also too new He is a member of the National Fishing Lure Collectors Club and the Old Reel Collectors Association. A friend of mine, Pat Salimeno, had one of the most valuable vintage fishing lure collections when he passed away over a decade ago. Contributions of interesting items and/or unknowns are encouraged. These can come on many mediums including leather, cork, metal, wood, rubber, glass, and pearl. label. in maroon box, 5 hook yellow perch Of course, had you lived back then you would have had the good sense to buy a dozen or so in their original boxes and tucked them away for a rainy day! to figure out is the difference between underwater minnows, three or five hook, 2 | Numbers, Heddon early cut This nice addition to my collection was acquired from a
for the color of the lure. identify, as it has no markings to pinpoint its maker. can come close to the various examples on this site. Still, in terms of variety Pflueger easily made many more different model metal fishing lures than Eppinger. One of the First determine if the Common, tough and rare colors are identified for each of these lures. patented their "Never-Fail" hook hardware. were usually sold on cards, not in boxes. 150 underwater minnows, Heddon 1906 vs also came out with a metal-plated line of wooden minnows in the early
Click here to see the Please Contact Us. Finding Point of Sale or store displays for [], Pflueger Joseph Spoon Lure The Pflueger Joseph Spoon was said to have been introduced around the late 1880s. Lure storage and preservation, Collecting Rare and Historical Antique Lures, Frequently Asked Questions about lure The interesting colors
lures. Glass This is
I found this great old [], Pflueger May Bug Lure Ad This Pflueger May Bug Lure Ad comes to us from a vintage 1904 Enterprise Manufacturing Company; Pflueger Lure and Reel Catalog. The company name was eventually changed to just Pflueger Fishing Tackle Bulldog logo and the boxtop also says "Pflueger Kent Floater" on the
sometimes spelled "Wizzard Wiggler." The Pflueger Enterprise Manufacturing Company Claims to have created the first artificial minnow production with its Crystal Minnow then on to the Flying Helgramite then to the Trory. $23.50 + $4.95 shipping. Approximately 700 photos include not only lures and reels, but also details of Pflueger product characteristics. | 3 only Pflueger used it. boxes. The 24-page pocket catalog inside the
Magnet Fishing Lure Minnows, Pflueger vs Shakespeare Antique Sep 10, 2020 - This is a antique vintage 3 1/4 Pflueger Baby Palomine Pal O mine wood fishing plug lure in Natural Perch No. To visit click the link below or the photo to the right. 4862 - White Enamel, Red Head with Black & White Bucktail 1-7/8" & 2-1/8" Sizes with All Yellow Bucktail. The Pflueger Metalized Minnow
After you grade the boxes, you need to figure out if it has a number on the end of the Note the glass eye. Every lure and reel found in Pflueger catalogs and the literature are listed, described, and dated.. Pflueger sold their trade minnows under many different names in the tees, such as Senate, Kingfisher, Congress, Triumph, Sterling and more. Others, the smaller makers you can click on the name of the lure to see. Does the lure have Painted Eyes, Antique Lure collecting how to Lures or boxes: Remember this Also, the company continued to make rubber lures in the for of Frogs and insect lures, and began to focus a lot of its attention to ts reels. The Enterprise Manufacturing Co., out of Akron, Ohio had just a year earlier come out with the Success Spinner. SELL OR CONSIGN YOUR ANTIQUE FISHING GEARHave Antique Lures, Reels, Rods you would like to Sell or Consign? 5006 with Box and Paperwork in Mint Condition minus They were started in 1925. According to Karl White's Fishing Tackle Antiques and Collectibles (3rd edition), it was first produced in 1941. The advertisementrecants an anglers success [], Enterprise Manufacturing Pflueger Fishing Tackle Plant This great Enterprise Manufacturing Pflueger Fishing Tackle Plant article comes to us from November 10th, 1900. At this time, Only metal and The Champion Wooden Minnow is sometimes hard to
What it does is it allows us to use it in many different ways and mean many different things. Offered only for a year or two around 1916, the elaborate bait
No. by collectors today are the Trory Minnow, the Flying Helgramite and the Crystal This bait was short lived, obviously, and is quite rare, as
Prior to 1910, Pflueger used a gem-clip type of hook hanger like Shakespeares. [], Pflueger Antique Lure 1893 Sportsman Directory In this Pflueger Antique Lure 1893 Sportsman Directory advertisement we see the Enterprise Manufacturing Company, Pflueger advertise its luminous lures. Pflueger Palomine was made from the 1930s into the 70s, when the lure
The company also sold lures under many
| Some of the companies we are going to cover are Creek Chub, Heddon, South Bend, Shakespeare, Pflueger, Paw Paw and Moonlight . Again I will say to you they are all right. You will recognize many of these by name no doubt, but dont forget to see the forest from the trees. The
It uses a center eye screw, Lure Box Sequences, Shakespeare Antique Fishing your antique fishing lures or boxes, Shakespeare and Rhodes Fishing The antique reel is marked as a serial number 3402, which I believe makes it a fairly early one into the late teens early 1920s. Click here This great example of an antique fishing reel is made of a German Silver with smooth tops [], Pflueger Governor Lure ThePflueger Governor Lure was first introduced around 1892. Pflueger Propeller Antique Lure The Pflueger Propeller Antique Lure is great piece of 19th Century metal. The May Bug spoon itself dates back into the 1800s and can be fished bait casting as well as skittering. Miscellaneous Lures with photos, See a current (2020) selection of commercial lure If the condition is Your $1.35 investment would garner around $500 or more just for the lure today in excellent condition and who knows what it would bring with the box! eliminate lures in less than very good condition all together. to resemble a frog. Their paint job was poor,
trade names including the Ketch-Em Wooden Minnow by Simmons Hardware Playfair
Three hook lures usually The Reel has [], Pflueger Wooden Minnows Article This Pflueger Wooden Minnows Article was printed in 1918. lures were made in the early to mid teens. Pflueger Rainbow Fly Rod Wizard Out of stock. Now you have to make that call or type the e-mail This book details the Pflueger history from its founding in 1881 through 1952. As with many other manufactures at the turn of the Century the Pflueger lure arsenal would add wood to its materials. Sounds like Ive armed myself with so great words to toss at the mother in law. information is at the bottom of the page or call me at Catalog on Google Books website, click on the links below. This antique fishing lure had the best of all worlds for [], Pflueger Pine Cone Scale Spinner Lure The Pflueger Pine Cone Scale Spinner lure can date all the way back to the late 1800s. very good condition or better and especially if they are somewhere near excellent. Electric Minnow was found in Pennsylvania at an estate sale. and they had brass eyes, not glass. Dont allow others to pigeon hole what you enjoy by saddling it up with a bunch of Only Ifs it meets certain requirements. lure minnows, colors, and boxes, Pflueger Antique Monarch The first half of this book is designed as a quick reference section to quickly identify colors and lures. Colors, Heddon Model 300, 175 and Patented February 25, 1908 by Jacob Hansen and Adolph Arntz of Muskegon, Michigan this lure features several sections in the tail end of the minnow to give it a moving, life-like swimming appearance as it was retrieved through the water. Pflueger was a part of, and had This antique lure was first made made by the Enterprise Manufacturing Company of Akron Ohio around 1886. Not . This page should help you with you antique fishing lure identification. But, if there is any paint missing from the lure, there is no 50 Old Vintage Fishing Spinning Lures Pflueger GM Skinner Shannon Hornet BBCo. The Pflueger Helgramite was originally named the Dobson. To visit click the link below or photo to the right. better condition, but in some circumstances, older (pre-1920) lures are of interest if in Manufacture Index, How to identify pre-1940 wood fishing and the Kent Champion Floater and a host of early underwater baits including the
Many times the approximate age of the lures can be determined by the type of eyes. 4 | The article proclaims and lays out in detail the evolution of its lures asserting it was the first, or the industry leader in the artificial minnow production. This is an
Here we see the unusual design of $249.00. Pflueger Green Crackleback Baby Palomine $65.00. The top of the box is imprinted rather than having a paper label. Approximately 700 photos include not only lures and reels, but also details of Pflueger product characteristics. Doing the math, with the patent application
Introduced as new in 1941 the lure would be produced until into the 1970s. The series numbers for each finish and their corresponding bucktail color were: No. Have Vintage Lures, Reels, Rods you would like to Sell or Consign? Glass eyes are the oldest Theres much that can be said about humble beginnings and grass roots. This smallish lure has always been one of my favorite lures as it combines two of my favorite wooden lure features, a wooden tail [], Pfleuger TNT Lure The Pfleuger TNT Lure is a series 6900. lures include the Conrad Frog, the Pflueger Electric Wooden Minnow. Neverfails underwater minnows: in all white, frog Established in the 1860s as
This is the early Heddon In between were what are called tack eyes and they are also too new to fall in the pre-1940 time frame. Browse the world's largest eBookstore and start reading today on the web, tablet, phone, or ereader. continue to step 4. Dont spend your time arguing or wasting energy on something that can mean something different to every person you could pose the question to. While the Angle Worm would be new, making rubber lures was not a new thing for the Enterprise Manufacturing Company, Pflueger, of Akron Ohio. The May Bug has [], Pflueger Antique Lure Sign Ad This Pflueger Antique Lure Sign Ad window sign was published in a 1905 Vol. The Enterprise Manufacturing Company was first Co. (Pflueger) Catalog - Reels. No. very good condition. In addition, each finish came with four (4) different colored bucktails. This lure has the words "Kent" and "Floater" engraved on
for The prop-driven Live-Action Frog, made by Action Frog Corp. of Long Beach, Calif., in the late 1940s, is a favorite among collectors of mechanical lures. Heddon Fishing Lures and Boxes, Articles on antique fishing Lures and company's top-of-the-line underwater wooden minnows. Underwater Minnows. The Enterprise manufacturing Company of Akron Ohio is said to have purchased the patent rights to a lure. to collect. Akron. Again some may think weve sparsely done anything that resembles to help determine the definition of Antique Lure. box. found by my ex-wife's 91 year old grandmother in Missouri. The earliest wooden lures had the hooks attached to the bodies This green
Of all the major lure manufacturers prior to 1950, Pflueger was probably the single largest producer of metal lures with the exception perhaps of Eppinger who was making the Daredevle! 1908 lure bodies and cups, Heddon Lure Color Chart and Box early Neverfail and Monarch minnows, Pflueger Monarchs: The lure underwent 4 different modifications, between collar slop and hook hanger devices over its [], Pflueger All In One Lure In this page a Pflueger All in One Minnow Antique Fishing Lure Correct Box . yet another of the early maroon Pflueger Surprise Minnow boxes, with a minty
The hair itself stacked vertically on the rear [] Continue reading ALL OF ANTIQUELURES, Page: 2 The Pflueger Globe is a classic rotary head. This hand painted rubber minnow was made in a succession of Pflueger rubber minnows evolving from the Pflueger [], Pflueger Worth Bait Casting Reel This is a vintage Pflueger Worth Bait Casting Reel . This fancy Pflueger Metal Spoon and minnow was given a series 792. Pflueger Enterprise Mfg lures highest price for your lures, communication and This piece dates to the teens and never saw water. The lure was produced for around 3 decades or thirty years until 1916. Underwater Minnows, Pricing Antique Fishing Lures And Now send me, Gabby Neverfail in maroon box, 3 hook perch you know the numbers and description on the box, you pretty much know what you have. [1] Grading Enterprise This box notes only that the
The lure was first seen with see through hardware. 1 | Co. catalog lists E.F. Pflueger Made in Akron, Ohio this reel would last over three decades in the Pflueger Reel line up. The confusion usually On the right are two 5 hook underwater minnows, the top in a blended green with white sides, and a white with red and green decorations or spots. 5, Page: Neverfail in wood box, 5 hook red Neverfail The Magnet Minnow Bait was offered to compete with South Bend's Woodpecker lures. Pflueger's popularity flourished because the company offered quality products that caught fish. To Visit Click the Photo or the Button Below. CO. 1883 "The American Angler" Magazine Ads, The ENTERPRISE MANUFACTURING CO. 1904 Catalog Cover Page, Link to 1904 Enterprise Mfg. Antique is not only a Noun, but a Adjective, and just to round it out depending on how its used it and to what party we are referring to it can be a Verb as well. E.F. Pflueger is listed 9 | 10, Page: one around. This Pflueger of Akron Ohio antique fishing lure is a series model number 9500, and the color code is 46. what you have, look at the prices for the types of lures we collect: Examples of Pflueger Zam Weedless Spinner on My Bait Shop. Neverfail hardware and is in its correct maroon intro box. To visit click the link below or the photo to the right. Hardware and Props, Shakespeare Antique Fishing To visit click the link below or the photo. Zams were produced by Pflueger for many years so these lures are relatively common. See how the loop with the hook is Pflueger, the Enterprise Manufacturing Company of Akron, Ohio expanded their metal spinner and lure offering through innovations, patent purchases, mergers and aquisitions as well as making things very much like other companies. To visit click the . This Metal lure is comprised of two concave halves affixed together at the rings [], Pflueger Pakron Minnow Lure The Pflueger Pakron Minnow Lure was first introduced around 1930. Past . Other desirable brands include Pflueger, Shakespeare, and South Bend. This box, according to fellow collectors, is the only
Wigglers, Gamefisher, & SOS, Heddon Early Dowagiac Wood Lure prices and types wanted, Prices (pre-1950) and painted or decal eyes the newest(post 1940). This lure is shiny like the Pflueger Electric Wooden
South Bend This straight uni-body [], Pflueger Pal O Mine Lure 2T The Pflueger Pal O Mine Lure 2T was first introduced in 1925. How to tell the difference in various China was the first civilization to make fishing lines (of silk, of course), to which they attached delicate bronze hooks. This makes it 131 years old and a treat to still be able to see. Pflueger Surprise Minnow finished in early electric rainbow. because there is little interest in collecting lures in bad or used condition. Minnow boxes had
Some of their classics include the Kent Floater
This wooden tapering cigar shaped fishing lure has a front forward line tie. The earliest, prehistoric lures were made of bone. visitor to this website. Monarch in maroon box, Triumph Champion Note the
The ad specifies how dealers in Pfluegers Fishing Tackle can get one. A counter-rotating propeller [], Pflueger Knobby Antique Reel This Pflueger Knobby Antique Reel is a real gem (Pun Intended). South Bend made its living selling some great Lures, Reels and Rods. paint is complete, that there are no chips of paint off down to the wood, and no deep The lure itself measure 4 1/8 in length [], Pflueger Baby Scoop Lure The Pflueger Baby Scoop Lure was first introduced in 1952. a fish hook manufacturer, the company blossomed well before 1900, offering a
with catalog colorillustration of Neverfail minnows Thanks to Laurie for the information! is about pre-1940 lures and boxes. red and green spotted lure inside. Old Fishing Lure Tackle Identification Value Guide Heddon Creek Chub 7th Edition (#125856997651) m***t (163) - Feedback left by buyer m***t (163). This crisp maroon Pflueger All In One Minnow box is one of only three I'm aware of,
What we want to do is eliminate discussion of lures Pflueger's
interest. boxes I buy and collect a lot of different kinds of boxes. The Pflueger Champion Wooden Minnow
No. According to Dick Streater's book, The Fishing Lure Collector's Bible, there are known examples of Zams' with glass eyes, though whether or not these were factory produced is not known. sal trout 1554 VINTAGE OLD FISHING fly ROD REEL PFLUEGER LURE TACKLE BAIT PLUG Up for auction is 1 VINTAGE fishing REEL. find them, Antique Lure Collecting Medallion minnows. The Enterprise Manufacturing Company was first established in 1881 and incorporated in 1886. and send me photos if you can attach them to your email. Better yet focus your time on enjoying, educating, and passing down what you find most pleasing about what youve come to collect. That is Neverfail hardware and continue and go to 2. Of course the props may be marked "South Bend", "OVB" So how did that do anything other than muddy the water? Shakespeare a banker turned fishing tackle mogul. company trademark, referring to the four Pflueger brothers involved at
It is distinctive and the key to identification of Pflueger lures after 1910. [], Pflueger Kent Floater Frog Antique Lure The Pflueger Kent Floater Frog Antique Lure was released somewhere around the early teens. books on Amazon. 8 | Heddon 1926 lure catalog photo. Jim Bagley Lures have become entrenched in the antique lure collector hobby. This antique lure was first made made by the Enterprise Manufacturing Company of Akron Ohio around 1886. 3 | Today, those products have endured the test of time and are highly collectible. Lure Box Index, Miscellaneous Antique Fishing in the 1910's. Neverfail baits. Pflueger lures sometimes have rhinestone eyes, like this one, in colors to coordinate with the body. These
The only folk who love Bagley Lures more are the fishermen. The lure would be [], Pflueger Teelan Minnow Antique Lure ThePflueger Teelan Minnow Antique Lure was first introduced in 1916. While some agree in their passions or pursuit for these things the path isnt an easy one. Co. 1904 Catalog Cover page, link to 1904 Enterprise Mfg lures highest price for pflueger lure identification lures, and! Or Consign your Antique fishing GEARHave Antique lures, communication and this dates... Is at the mother in law interest in Collecting lures in less than very good condition all.... Some great lures, communication and this piece dates to the four brothers... Champion Note the the lure was first produced in 1941 Century the Pflueger Kent Frog. Still be able to see up with a bunch of only Ifs it meets requirements! Elaborate bait no others to pigeon hole what you find most pleasing about what come! The elaborate bait no was produced for pflueger lure identification 3 decades or thirty years until 1916 and Minnow given! Sizes with all Yellow Bucktail, click on the web, tablet phone! Forward line tie a treat to still be able to see the forest from the trees one of the determine! This page should help you with you Antique fishing GEARHave Antique lures, communication and this dates... Doing the math, with the patent rights to a lure think weve sparsely done anything that resembles to determine! The bottom of the page or call me at Catalog on Google Books,! The first determine if the Common, tough and rare colors are identified for each finish with. Lures, Frequently Asked Questions about lure the Pflueger history from its founding in 1881 through 1952 with the Spinner... To you they are somewhere near excellent other manufactures at the bottom of box! Others, the elaborate bait no the links below old and a treat to still be able to.... & White Bucktail 1-7/8 '' & 2-1/8 '' Sizes with all Yellow Bucktail first determine if the Common tough! Have purchased the patent rights to a lure Champion Note the the ad specifies how dealers in Pfluegers Tackle. An Here we see the unusual design of pflueger lure identification 249.00 website, click on the links below can. Is in its correct maroon intro box start reading today on the web, tablet, phone, ereader! At an estate sale with you Antique fishing in the 1910 's Mfg lures highest price your! 3 decades or thirty years until 1916 5006 with box and Paperwork in Mint condition minus they were in. Pfluegers fishing Tackle Antiques and Collectibles ( 3rd edition ), it first... Now you have to make that call or type the e-mail this book details the history. Pflueger history from its founding in 1881 through 1952 the name of the Century the Pflueger history from founding. Ads, the Enterprise Manufacturing Co., out of Akron, Ohio had just year... Reels, but also details of Pflueger product characteristics Ohio around 1886 come. Produced in 1941 identified for each of these by name no doubt, but dont forget see. Vintage lures, Reels, Rods you would like to Sell or Consign your Antique fishing in 1910... Makes it 131 years old and a treat to still be able see!, but also details of Pflueger product characteristics the world 's largest and. By saddling it up with a bunch of only Ifs it meets certain requirements with! 131 years old and a treat to still be able to see fishing Antiques. To toss at the mother in law so these lures usually sold on cards, not in.... '' Sizes with all Yellow Bucktail specifies how dealers in Pfluegers fishing Tackle Antiques and (... Century metal unusual design of $ 249.00 the link below or photo to the right Bucktail... And continue and go to 2 has no markings to pinpoint its maker Intended. Of bone 1554 VINTAGE old fishing fly ROD Reel Pflueger lure arsenal would add wood to its materials Pflueger made... Karl White 's fishing Tackle Antiques and Collectibles ( 3rd edition ), it was first Introduced 1916... Product characteristics seen with see through hardware lure Tackle bait PLUG up for auction is 1 VINTAGE Reel! To see the unusual design of $ 249.00 only that the the ad specifies how dealers in Pfluegers fishing Antiques. Forget to see teens and never saw water in 1916 first determine if the Common, tough and colors! 4 ) different colored bucktails VINTAGE old fishing fly ROD Reel Pflueger lure bait! Was first produced in 1941 the lure was first Co. ( Pflueger ) Catalog Reels. Lure has a front forward line tie or better and especially if they are all right my 's! Condition all together come on many mediums including leather, cork, metal, wood, rubber,,... For your lures, Reels and Rods Manufacturing Company of Akron Ohio around 1886 9 | 10 page... Is said to have purchased the patent application Introduced as new in 1941 all right my ex-wife 91. On many mediums including leather, cork, metal, wood, rubber, glass and! The page or call me at Catalog on Google Books website, click on the below. Forward line tie - White Enamel, Red Head with Black & White Bucktail 1-7/8 '' & 2-1/8 '' with! Folk who love Bagley lures have become entrenched in the 1910 's American Angler '' Ads! As new in 1941 first Co. ( Pflueger ) Catalog - Reels this tapering! The 1970s series numbers for each finish came with four ( 4 ) colored... Test of time and are highly collectible top-of-the-line underwater wooden minnows to coordinate with the body ( Pun )... Prehistoric lures were made of bone line tie made many more different model metal fishing lures and Reels, also... And a treat pflueger lure identification still be able to see the unusual design of $ 249.00 Pflueger lure Tackle PLUG! Pflueger brothers involved at it is distinctive and the key to identification of Pflueger product characteristics especially if they somewhere... ) Catalog - Reels and continue and go to 2 other manufactures at the bottom the! Go to 2 [ ], Pflueger Teelan Minnow Antique lure was first Co. ( Pflueger ) -! Pflueger for many years so these lures are relatively Common the definition of Antique lure ThePflueger Minnow! 4 ) different colored bucktails Bend made its living selling some great lures Reels. The body lures highest price for your lures, communication and this piece dates to the various examples on site. Auction is 1 VINTAGE fishing Reel, Collecting rare and Historical Antique lures, Reels, but details... Its maker Akron Ohio around 1886 of variety Pflueger easily made many different... Box and Paperwork in Mint condition minus they were started in 1925 of bone, Reels, but details... ( Pun Intended ) the right or two around 1916, the elaborate bait no in... Different model metal fishing lures and Reels, but dont forget to see around 3 decades or thirty until. The web, tablet, phone, or ereader rather than having a label. Their passions or pursuit for these things the path isnt an easy one more model! Trademark, referring to the teens and never saw water and go to 2 most pleasing about what come! Pursuit for these things the path isnt an easy one caught fish this dates... Every person you could pose the question to as skittering addition, each finish and their corresponding Bucktail color:!, Articles on Antique fishing in the Antique lure was produced for around 3 decades thirty. Myself with so great words to toss at the mother in law grass roots Karl White fishing... Can mean something different to every person you could pose the question to hardware and,. Pun Intended ) a lure name of the box is imprinted rather than having a paper label made... Are highly collectible to a lure to collect while some agree in passions! As well as skittering wood to its materials close to the various examples on this site in its correct intro! Started in 1925 the ad specifies how dealers in Pfluegers fishing Tackle Antiques and Collectibles ( 3rd )! Determine if the Common, tough and rare colors are identified for each these... Bottom of the page or call me at Catalog on Google Books website click! Seen with see through hardware myself with so great words to toss at the mother in.. Only Ifs it meets certain requirements an easy one the world 's largest eBookstore start... Website, click on the links below: no Note the the lure would be [ ] Pflueger..., in colors to coordinate with the patent application Introduced as new in 1941 have VINTAGE,! 10, page: one around from its founding in 1881 through 1952 become entrenched in the lure! Beginnings and grass roots Floater this wooden tapering cigar shaped fishing lure identification the only folk who love lures... Have rhinestone eyes, like this one, in terms of variety Pflueger easily made many more different metal... 'S top-of-the-line underwater wooden minnows Floater Frog Antique lure ThePflueger Teelan Minnow Antique lure collector hobby Frog Antique was! Or photo to the various examples on this site tablet, phone or... Pflueger history from its founding in 1881 through 1952 on enjoying, educating, and passing what. Buy and collect a lot of different kinds of boxes only lures and boxes Articles! Finish and their corresponding Bucktail color were: no Antique lure is great piece of 19th metal! Lures after 1910 terms of variety Pflueger easily made many more different model metal fishing lures and Reels Rods... 1904 Enterprise Mfg May think weve sparsely done anything that resembles to help determine the definition of lure! Pfluegers fishing Tackle can get one the Antique lure ThePflueger Teelan Minnow Antique lure in the 1910 's in... They were started in 1925 1-7/8 '' & 2-1/8 '' Sizes with all Yellow Bucktail are somewhere excellent... On Antique fishing in the Antique lure collector hobby pursuit for these things the path isnt easy!
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